Catholic Protestant Dialogue
Ephesians 4:1 ¶I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that
ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
The Catholic-Protestant debate has been raging on for centuries. Only in
recent decades has there been what we could call true dialogue between
them and less closed-minded debate and diatribe but there is still too
much pride on each side and not enough love to come together. Raised a
Protestant as a child, I have understood the animosity and prejudice
that can be engrained in an impressionable mind from an un-enlightened
environment. The reformation gave us a good start on the restoration of
the church to its original purity but unfortunately, the zeal to
separate from all things Roman put the Protestants into the Puritan
ignorance that many Christians have yet to overcome. Whether you agree
or not, the reformation was especially good for the Roman Catholic
Church through the counter-reformation response and of the efforts of
Vatican II since. Much work still needs to be done on both sides before
either side can agree.
To think that Roman Catholics are not saved and that anyone that is a
member of the Catholic Church is part of Babylon is to be of the spirit
of anti-christ. This is the same ignorant attitude that judges others as
non-christian anyone who does not agree with your bigoted narrow minded
theology. The same goes for those Roman Catholics that believe that
anyone outside of the fellowship of Rome is separated from the true
church. The fact is that both must put away their false doctrines and
schismatic sectarianism to come into one accord. This discussion list is
made up of all branches of the church. We need to discuss from all sides
to come to any consensus. I believe it is possible to come together in
love but it is the humility part that will break down the barriers to be
able to come into agreement. This is not the "agree to disagree"
business as usual compromises that need to be addressed but rather unity
according to the truth. We may not be able to change the whole situation
but let's see what we can do to change our little part of it.
I have not been a Protestant for years now. For me, the term suggests a
"protest" against the Roman Church and I put away that type of thinking
long ago. It served the church 4 and 5 hundred years ago but is not
suited for any kind of dialogue today. The first protest in the
reformation was of course when Martin Luther nailed up his 95 theses
upon the door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg. The reason Luther did
this was to protest the sale of indulgences arguing that the pope had no
right to dispense God's graces for money. Luther was right, the pope was
wrong. If the Roman church had repented of the evil right away, there
would have been no Protestant revolt but pride goes before a fall.
Luther was excommunicated and the reformation began with those of
"faithful Antipas" guiding the way. Recently the Roman Church praised
Martin Luther as a "witness to the Gospel, a teacher in faith and as
someone calling for spiritual renewal."
As a group that has discussed many things already, we can start with
what we positively agree upon which is Jesus. We have decided that we
are Trinitarian, we believe in His Incarnation, the virgin birth, the
Atonement, His bodily resurrection, His Second Coming. We believe that
he has saved us by our faith in Him through grace, we believe in
scripture as divine, we believe in heaven and hell, of demons and
angels, the communion of saints and affirm the early creeds of the
faith. We believe that the Roman Church has produced great men and women
in the past like Saint Augustine and Francis of Assisi, Athenasius,
Saint Theresa, Arminius, Erasmus, Savonarola and Thomas Aquinas. The
list is much longer compelling at least the loving Protestants to accept
the faith of the Catholic Church, not as something to be refuted but
part of the body of Christ to be embraced as brothers and sisters in the
Lord.
At this point, there are many, many things I could bring up but I will
leave that up to you. There is the story of Vatican II and Pope John
XXIII, the charismatic movement within both branches of the church. The
positive things such as putting away forbidding to eat meat, statues on
dashboards, Mass in the language that we can understand, encouragement
of Bible reading and many other things. Other things must be discussed
such as the priesthood of all believers, the nicolaitan errors of the
hierarchy, dispensing of grace, empowerment of women. Protestant
excesses also that were introduced in the reformation should be
discussed such as extreme fundamentalism, sola scriptura, private
interpretation of scripture, incompatible doctrine, autonomous churches,
determinism, denial of tradition, bishops and the prophetic word.
Let's give it a try.
Speak the truth in love. "Prove all things: hold fast that which is
good" (1 Thess. 5:21).
Jay
Jay,
Thanks for your reply, and although I don't have much time for
joining
in, I'll look forward to reading what others have to say. Among the many
things God has assigned to me this year is the teaching of the Catholic
faith to 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. Most recently, my 8th graders have
been
carrying on some passionate discussions regarding their and the Church's
views on several issues related to the sanctity of human life, namely
abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide, and the refusal of
medical
treatment for one's self or one's children.
The discussions started out with many of them stating their viewpoints
based
solely on what they had heard said by others. I'm pleased to note that
their
minds have been opened to some harsh realities, and several have changed
their minds regarding the abortion issue. (About 1/2 of my class started
out
by saying that while it was not an action they would choose for
themselves,
they did support the right of others to make their own choices.) All of
this
led to a new discussion regarding the viewpoints of other Christian
churches
on several issues, and one of my students asked a question I was
hard-pressed to come up with a suitable answer for: "Why," they ask, "in
a
Catholic church, while stating our belief in 'one, holy, catholic, and
apostolic church,' do we seem to contradict that statement by excluding
other Christians from the celebration of our Eucharist?" They see this
as
extremely unjust, as we first declare that we are the universal church,
welcoming to all, through our use of the term 'catholic' with a
lower-case
'c,' and then exclude our Christian brothers and sisters from the
Eucharistic celebration. Beyond the obvious response, that other
Christians
do not necessarily believe in the True Presence of Jesus in the
Eucharist,
do you, or any of your readers, have any suggestions for an appropriate
response?
---------------------------
Hi Kathy,
>excluding
Your students are to be commended for such an insightful question. As to
an answer, I would have to take a response that it is Catholic power
that keeps the Roman Church from becoming true "catholic" (universal).
As long as the separation of clergy and laity exists, as long as the
priesthood of all believers is not acknowledged, including the ministry
being denied to women and as long as the blood of Christ is withheld
from the congregation in the Eucharist, there will be these problems and
these questions. As to full unity, it is up to the Roman hierarchy to
bring the solutions, but as long as the hierarchy is acting upon false
authority by exalting their own church leaders above others in the body,
this is not possible. The abuse of power has always put the Roman
Catholic Church in the position of being less than it can be by trying
to become more than it should. And as long as the Roman Church considers
themselves to be the purveyors of grace instead of Jesus Himself, the
question of authority will never be answered.
Thanks for asking. I pray that there will be a suitable answer to these
questions in the future coming out of Rome for the sake of true unity.
Stay blessed,
Jay
(Another letter by a visitor to my site)
We do not believe in worshipping Mary. Only Our Lord is worthy of
worship.
In the Catholic Church there is a difference between worship and prayer.
I find this information in your search engine on your web site engine. I
just
typed in Mary and that's when a page regarding Maritology pop up.
We look upon Mary as the Mother of God-Jesus, the second person of the
Trinity.
For we feel that God chose Mary to be Holy and a Virgin in order to be
the
Mother of His Holy Son Jesus. If God chose Mary to be the Mother of our
His
Son Jesus; and one of His Ten Commandments is to 'honor and obey thy
Mother
and thy Father'. Then when we are praying to Mary then we are
'honoring' her
as the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The event regarding her as the
'Mother of Our Lord Jesus' is totally a separate event from her as the
wife
of Joseph and the Mother of his children. For it clearly states in the
Holy
Bible that Joseph is the
foster father of Jesus; and that Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore, when we pray to Mary, we are praying to her as the Mother of
God-Jesus. If you read John 2 about the wedding in Cana. That Jesus
performed his first miracle at His mother's (Mary) request instead of
His
Heavenly Father.
And if God didn't chastise Jesus for honoring his Mother, Mary; then
why
shouldn't the children in the Body of Christ not do the same?
In Christ,
Jay,
Bill Caraway
Jay, My life is turned around. I am now
going
(for the last 2 months) to a church called Vineyard in Pacific Beach,
Ca.
Each church that I have attended the last two years (very large - at
least
3,000 people - churches) have coveted the voice, while wanting to change
it
to fit their program. All I know is I have been very afraid (I know
love
casts out fear so I ask for forgiveness, but sin scares me and when I
see
covetness and pride I'm very afraid). Being at this church (Vineyard)
has
brought much peace. I realize I am going into my personal 3rd day and
am
praying that what He started will start making sense to me.
Sorry this is so long. But there is no way to explain what has happened
to
me, all I know is I have become a freak to many, and a blessing to
others.
All I want is to be obedient to God and trust that He will use me in
spite of
my many sins.
I agree with most of the things you wrote in this discussion. There are
many theological points that we could debate on such as even though we
are
saints on earth, when do you enter that sainthood? Is it the time when
we
are saved? Can we lose our salvation? I believe so...look at Judas and
Saul
and Samson when they were turned over to satan..I don't know if they
lost
their salvation, I think this is possible. Do we have communion until
that
time? Does it begin when we are baptized in the Holy Spirit and begin
to
lose the bondage, demons and darkness of the enemy? Also, have you ever
heard 'Close Encounters of the God Kind' by Jesse DuPlantis?..He was
actually taken to heaven for divine revelation and there is a book by
another author called 'A Divine Revelation of Heaven' where she was
taken to
heaven also. Both these people say much of the same things and saw the
spirits of the saints in heaven, some in white robes of righteousness
and
others in beautiful gowns that had not yet earned the white robes of
righteousness but were being taught so that they may wear them. So I
think
the spirit of the saints are in heaven now and that at the time of
resurrection their immortal bodies will be restored...like you said
Elijah
was taken as is to heaven!
Audette
Jay,
If salvation is a process of gaining God and taking him completely into
your being, then we cannot be with God until we have been transformed.
If
we do not love, we do not have life, and we will not have it until we
love
with God's perfect love. Paradoxically, we are on one hand righteous
because we are bought by God and free from condemnation, yet still
struggling to be conformed completely to Christ's death and his life.
Being with God and being one flesh with God can only happen when we have
grown fully in him.
Several times it was mentioned that God is a God of the living and not
of
the dead. When Jesus said this he was addressing the issue of the
resurrection. At this time he had not passed through death and
resurrection, so Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were certainly still in the
power of death, even if they came to life at the crucifixion.
At the same time, there is the fact that when Jesus died, many of the
dead
rose to life. It does not seem at all problematic to believe that the
saints (I use this term to mean the perfected believers although it is
more
ambiguous in the Bible), having become holy in their life on earth, are
in
heaven. They are not only saved judicially but also transformed and
restored into the full image of God, so there is no reason that they
could
not be with him at this time.
Finally, as to the issue of intercession by the saints, I have always
felt
very uncomfortable with the idea without being fully aware of why. Just
now it occurred to me what the issue is that worries me. If all
believers,
living and dead, are one body, then we can address our prayer requests
to
anyone. Too much emphasis has been made in the Catholic and Orthodox
traditions on intercession by the saints, eclipsing the fact, alluded to
in
the previous message, that all of the departed believers can intercede
for
us. All of us, on earth, in Heaven, or in Hades, can speak to God.
Certainly he hears the prayers of those who are not immediately beside
him.
To recover a biblical doctrine of the communion of the saints, we must
have
one without the spirit of Nicolaitanism, and this means focusing on all
the
intercessors rather than a small, special group.
Eric Olson
---------------------------------
Hi Eric,
Your questions are those that others still have as well. This is why a
few of us have referred to the can of worms. Confusing, isn't it. Anyway
through what I have already figured out and that of what others have
submitted, i will try to clear some of this up for you in dialectic and
make a few comments.
First of all, you refer to the harvest. The harvest refers to the end of
the age when both the saved and the unsaved are together on the earth,
not in the grave. There will be a time that they will be getting
together with those that have gone on. We have discussed that eternity
and our relationship to time are different. Future time in eternity is a
moot point. You also refer to "the dead
The conclusions that you make seem to me to be quite correct. I also
agree about the judgment and the book of life as already occurring if we
are among the overcomes. The salvation process that you refer to sounds
more like the sanctification process which may or may not be the same
thing. I have to admit that I am not as yet completely clear upon this
either and neither is scripture.
As to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being among the living but Jesus had not
died yet, you are again referring to our relationship to time rather
than to eternity. Our concept of time is linear, as opposed to circular,
as others believe. Think of any point in our time and one dying and
going to heaven. Once in heaven, there is not any relationship to our
time, so whatever point in time that one physically dies, past, present
or at the time of the resurrection, it is the same point in eternity
because our relationship to time there is irrelevant. It is not a hard
concept but it is necessary to understand the relationship to the living
in eternity and those in the grave awaiting a resurrection. It is in the
"kairos," the fullness of time that we wait and long for. Jesus is the
Alpha and Omega. He knows the end of time because He is outside and
beyond it and sees and understands the beginning and the end. When He
breaks through again into history, it will be according to our
relationship to the marching of time in a forward progress.
In your mention of the communion of saints, you again mention the
question of all the living and dead as one body. It is not the dead, God
is the God of the living, right? The "dead" are in the grave awaiting
the second resurrection which will be the final judgment. Those that
have gained eternal life are not included in this number and are not
dead but live. We can only address our prayer requests to the living. As
we make our requests known to the saints, they intercede for us. This
cannot be done if they are "dead." You are absolutely right in that this
cannot be done with a spirit of Nicolaitanism but in unity, as one body
and in not preferring any one group over another.
Jay
------------------------------
Jay,
Your point about time is interesting. I came to a similar
conclusion when
thinking about creation and evolution. While it bears on some parts of
this
question, I am not sure if it provides a complete answer. If time as we
know it
does not exist in heaven, then it becomes even less clear what route
Abraham,
Isaac, and the rest of us take from earth to heaven. We are all
perfected and
one with God in eternity, but do we go directly from earth to God's
presence?
John 3:16 says that, "whoever believes in him shall not perish but
have
eternal life." Looking closer, I have to agree that we do not die
spiritually. However, I would ask why it was necessary for the dead
saints to
be raised from their tombs when Jesus died. I interpret this as
indicating
that they were raised from Sheol prior to being taken to heaven. Of
course it
is also possible that they were simply raised in the same way that
Lazarus was,
back to a mortal body to continue a mortal life. Death is quite a hard
thing to
understand.
In contrast to this, I do see the last judgement, both in the
parables and
the book of Revelation, as being a time where sheep and goats are being
separated rather than a rubber-stamp approval of a judgement that has
already
been made. I do agree that the saints have already been separated,
since they
are seated on the thrones of judgement, but what of the unsanctified
believers?
Can we worship at God's throne before we have been perfected? Paul says
that
those whose foundations are built of straw will be saved as through
fire. This
seems to refer to the image of metal being purified by being melted and
the
impurities being burned away. It would suggest that our journey is not
necessarily finished when we die physically.
The key to this paradox is to remember that spiritual death is not
something that happens to us in the future, but something that has
already
happened in the past, by Adam's sin. It has just occurred to me that
death is
an ongoing condition that we overcome with the Lord's help and not
something
that comes out of the blue when our bodies give out. When Adam sinned,
mankind
died spiritually. Every day of our lives our bodies continue to degrade
and
corrupt, until they die. The same thing happens spiritually, and
continues into
eternity unless we are with God. As we approach God, the process of
spiritual
death is reversed and we gain eternal life, but this is not something
that
happens all at once, as seen in the struggles we go through when working
out our
salvation. I can say with confidence that I am both dead and alive. I
am dead
in that I have not overcome every stronghold of sin in my body and
soul. I am
alive in that I have been born of water and the Spirit. It is a common
misconception among Protestants (of whom I am one) that as soon as we
die we are instantly and painlessly transformed into perfection to be
with God. If God worked that way, why does he not do that while we are
still alive? This
misconception finds its most extreme expression in the faulty rapture
theology
that you have criticized elsewhere, as well as the apathy to which the
church
can succumb. While there is good reason to be suspicious of the
doctrine of
purgatory, the worst element of that doctrine was the idea that the rich
could
buy their way out. Scripture does indicate that, though everyone who
calls on the Lord's name will be saved, it is not a trivial matter to
fall short
of the goal and not live up to the treasure with which we have been
entrusted.
So what happens to us when we die physically? I have already said
that I do
not think that the separation between saved and unsaved will be complete
until
the last judgement. As to where the sleeping believers are, I would say
that
they are with God to the extent that they are alive and absent from him
to the
extent that they are dead. In conclusion, I would ask you to remember
that even
on earth, the saints are with God, and even if a sinner were taken right
beside
the throne of God, he would not be with God. I hope I have not sounded
too
confused. If I have any new insights I will send them as well.
Eric
Thank you for the email Jay. So what happens to an average guy like me
who
is trying to do the right thing, but as humans are, sometimes I fail?
Mike
--------------------------------------
Hi Mike,
I am just an average guy too and I fail. The "overcomers" are those that
may still stumble and fall in the midst of tribulation and but are
faithful enough to pick themselves up. Overcoming failure shows if a
person is just playing church or in it for the prosperity or power or
just for the life insurance. We are in a church of grace, not in a
literal adherence to the law. Jesus still loves us if we fail and will
not let us down. Like Paul, we may have our thorns but it reminds us of
our unworthiness and in the sufficiency of God's grace. And it guards us
from pride. Confession and repentance is our responsibility. Forgiveness
is God's responsibility and He will never fail.
Jay
Good morning Jay, Thank you very much for this edition. We know that
God is a God of the living and not the dead. When psychics went to the
witch of Endor. This woman brought up a spirit that was supposed to be
Samuel. ( The enemy lucifer can do many things he is a deceiver,) The
work that this witch did is not the work of God. This is also known as
necronomicon. She said she heard this spirit coming from under the
earth. This spirit was not the true spirit of Samuel. Yes it did speak
to Saul and told him things, just as Lucifer told Eve many things also.
Just as today we have witches that gives out information to people and
they are known as psychics. This is why the gift of discernment of
spirits
is so important in our lives. After all, the spirit of Egypt is upon
this
world and lucifer is the god of it.
M. M.
October 25, 2000
2 ¶With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one
another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope
of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in
you all.
Kathy
> other Christians from the celebration of our Eucharist?
Stella
Thank you for the tremendous message today. Man, there is nothing more
that
needs to be said on this subject - your last paragraph is so powerful
and
full of so much spirituality that you can close this subject out
immediately. Fan the flames and get that smoke away from the back of
your
computer terminal. All praises be to the Most High God!
I thank God that He led me to your web site. I accepted the Lord 9
years ago
and believed everything He said in His Word. It would take to long to
explain everything, but I was filled with joy and served Him as a Sunday
school teacher, Children's director, helped start up new churches,
started
programs in existing churches, and have gotten to introduce people from
all
life situations to God. But unfortunately what I felt and saw were
always
separate from what was happening in the church. I went to Presbyterian
and
Baptist churches. Two years ago I was visiting a church during one of
their
worship only services. Everything was quiet and calm then they asked
people
to come forward for prayer, something I would never do, so I went up a
few
aisles while my friends went forward. I did pray for myself that God
would
renew my joy (something I had thought impossible to loose), while I was
praying a wind (from the south of me) blew within me, upon my body and I
felt
upon the whole church. I was embarrassed to fall down but that is what
I knew
was going to happen because I couldn't stand under the power of the
wind. So
I fell to my knees. I think this lasted about 10 -15 min. The next
thing I
know I stand up and start singing with this voice that I didn't
recognize.
Very loud - powerful - full of wind. People started singing and jumping
up
and down. Some came over to me and touched me and started crying. Some
people have fallen as they come near me. Since then my life has changed
dramatically. I also started seeing visions that would happen - some
almost
immediately, one vision didn't happen until just recently. But all I
know is
God told me to blow the trumpet.
Yours in Christ,
Arlette
I've been pretty busy recently, but your last post caught my interest.
I've been wondering about some of these questions recently. In
particular,
where are the dead. We must remember that the wheat and tares grow
together until the harvest, so it does not seem that the saved and
unsaved
are already separated. If they have not yet been separated, then the
dead
are all in the same place. If all Christians are already separated from
the unbelievers and taken to heaven, then the judgement has already
happened. We know that some of those who face the judgement will be
found
innocent because their names are written in the book of life.
> are all in the same place"
This is a generalizing statement and leaves no room for the living.
Eternal life does not mean that you die spiritual as well as physically
so it seems to me that your questioning needs to go along those lines.
Thank you for your response. I think that there are some
difficulties in
communication. First, you ask what I mean by salvation. In this
context, I was
referring to salvation as including sanctification. I do not consider
salvation
to be complete until we have been sanctifies, although one does not have
to be
perfect at the time of one's death to have one's name in the book of
life.
There is still time to finish the process after death.Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
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